Council must save millions in next three years (From Western Telegraph)

Let's start with the councillors leading by example, perhaps they could be paid what they are worth rather than what they think they are worth. The next elections should be held on the manifesto of councillors being there for altruistic reasons rather than the sheer, naked greed that draws them in now. Dud councillors should be sacked when they reach the "Peter Principle" level of incompetence instead of leapfrogging higher and higher way beyond their levels of expertise. Down and out instead of being moved sideways. All expenses should need receipts to be claimed and should reflect the actual value of the expense. Meal expenses should be for one, not a table full of cronies under the guise of "entertaining" I'm sure the worthies running the place can think of lots more lurks and perks that are morally wrong that still find their way into their pockets. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lots of ideas in the comments on the previous story a week or two ago - http://www.westernte
legraph.co.uk/news/1
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"Open" seminars surely not?

Are they open for us unwashed to attend or are they secret members only gatherings at which no minutes will be made public.?

This is the way officers prefer to handle our budget process, rather than formal debates in public at full Council where we can see the input suggestions by our elected representatives, and reasons why they are discounted..

I have been at council budget meetings where councillors proposing amendments have been shouted down with IPG members saying they had the opportunity to raise matters at the seminar and that it was too late now!

Now is the time to get rid of the dead wood ,get shot of the hangers on and the creepers,all those that are in it for what they can get.Limits on ex's and allowances,cut backs in high salaries yes it must start from the to lead by example Its only then that we as rate payers can be satisfied.

All staff should take a 10% pay cut form the 1st Feb.

They will still be paid more than they are worth.

Wiltshire CC (my county of birth), covers 4 former District Councils and the population must be about 4 times that of Pembrokeshire.
It no longer has a Chief Executive, but it does have 3 Directors.
Speaking to a Wiltshire County Councillor last week, I asked if other Councils are looking at the model.
I wonder if Pembrokeshire CC will countenance at the top?
With so much change to happen, maybe now is the time to plan how the top tier will look, before it looks at any changes to services.
Services must be protected as far as possible.

Andrew Lye wrote:
Wiltshire CC (my county of birth), covers 4 former District Councils and the population must be about 4 times that of Pembrokeshire.
It no longer has a Chief Executive, but it does have 3 Directors.
Speaking to a Wiltshire County Councillor last week, I asked if other Councils are looking at the model.
I wonder if Pembrokeshire CC will countenance at the top?
With so much change to happen, maybe now is the time to plan how the top tier will look, before it looks at any changes to services.
Services must be protected as far as possible.

Correct many councils are merging.

It is the end of the line for the gravy train at PCC.

If you are right then it is also the end of Pembrokeshire!

Get a grip wrote:
All staff should take a 10% pay cut form the 1st Feb.

They will still be paid more than they are worth.

PCC staff are coming to the end of a three year pay freeze arguably in real terms a pay cut in excess of the 10% you arbitrarily suggest. There are a multitude of jobs within a Local Authority, most of which are statutory services, many of which are low paid, part time in caring or some times in unpleasant or hazardous conditions. Perhaps you could explain to these hard working people the rationale behind your assertions and criteria you have used to calculate their worth? I am sure you will be comforted to learn that from April around 16% of this workforce (not senior officers) face a pay cut as part of a Fair Pay review ordered by Government. I am sure you will be equally devastated that 18% will get a RAISE. This has been a long and complex procedure over around 8 years to determine what someone's labours are "worth". What a pity your great formula hadn't been employed years of uncertainty could have been saved.

I just hope that if/when the number of directors are reduced adequate corporate governance procedures and support is put in place.
Look what happened when the two CEO's from PCC and the Health Board decided to share PCC's former Director of social services and one other PCC officer senior officer, without any additional support.
Restructuring of departments has already taken plece, but of course we are not even informed. After all its nothing to do with us.

Bushwacker2011 wrote:
If you are right then it is also the end of Pembrokeshire!

The "excuse" the ppl who earn £190K and the imbeciles who allowed it they are comparable with industry/commerce call it what you will. In the real world bad companies merge or are taken over by more efficient/succesful companies - this won't happen will it with councils until they are forced too?Greed is a much stronger impulse than decency after all :(

Tttoommy wrote:

Bushwacker2011 wrote: If you are right then it is also the end of Pembrokeshire!

The "excuse" the ppl who earn £190K and the imbeciles who allowed it they are comparable with industry/commerce call it what you will. In the real world bad companies merge or are taken over by more efficient/succesful companies - this won't happen will it with councils until they are forced too?Greed is a much stronger impulse than decency after all :(

We are all entitled to have a view on salaries paid to those paid for by the public purse and most people would agree with you that the example quoted could be considered excessive.

Where I have an issue is your use of "real world" examples. Around 50% of the economy in Wales is public sector of some sort of another therefore it is very much "real world". In the pretend "real world" you talk about the leaders of companies good and "bad" recieve huge rewards regardless of performance. The idea that the free market is a meritocracy is patently false. It is NOT my assertion that the current situation in Local Government is ideal or even good. I would argue however that erroneous and simplistic comparisons with private industry couched in emotive and subjective language contribute little to the debate.

The salaries talked about in private industry are those of a tiny number of people at the top of enormous companies, or private individuals who own companies that are doing incredibly well. 99.99% of people in private industry actually earn very modest salaries, most probably less than £20 or £25k and even directors of small local businesses often get £40 or £50k. Many of those working for local authorities are on a par with the private sector, but have better pensions. The unions keep insinuating that the massive pay reportedly earned by those at the top of vast multinational companies is the norm for the private sector. They aren't and those at the top in the public sector should accept that their pay has now far outstripped that of the bosses of the average company with the same sort of turnover as a County Council or NHS Hospital.

timerousbeastie wrote:

Get a grip wrote:
All staff should take a 10% pay cut form the 1st Feb.

They will still be paid more than they are worth.

PCC staff are coming to the end of a three year pay freeze arguably in real terms a pay cut in excess of the 10% you arbitrarily suggest. There are a multitude of jobs within a Local Authority, most of which are statutory services, many of which are low paid, part time in caring or some times in unpleasant or hazardous conditions. Perhaps you could explain to these hard working people the rationale behind your assertions and criteria you have used to calculate their worth? I am sure you will be comforted to learn that from April around 16% of this workforce (not senior officers) face a pay cut as part of a Fair Pay review ordered by Government. I am sure you will be equally devastated that 18% will get a RAISE. This has been a long and complex procedure over around 8 years to determine what someone's labours are "worth". What a pity your great formula hadn't been employed years of uncertainty could have been saved.

Good I am glad to hear this news.

But cut back a further 10% and they will still be ahead of the private sector.

Bushwacker2011 wrote:
If you are right then it is also the end of Pembrokeshire!

Or possibly the start of Pembrookshire.

Get a grip wrote:

timerousbeastie wrote:

Get a grip wrote:
All staff should take a 10% pay cut form the 1st Feb.

They will still be paid more than they are worth.

PCC staff are coming to the end of a three year pay freeze arguably in real terms a pay cut in excess of the 10% you arbitrarily suggest. There are a multitude of jobs within a Local Authority, most of which are statutory services, many of which are low paid, part time in caring or some times in unpleasant or hazardous conditions. Perhaps you could explain to these hard working people the rationale behind your assertions and criteria you have used to calculate their worth? I am sure you will be comforted to learn that from April around 16% of this workforce (not senior officers) face a pay cut as part of a Fair Pay review ordered by Government. I am sure you will be equally devastated that 18% will get a RAISE. This has been a long and complex procedure over around 8 years to determine what someone's labours are "worth". What a pity your great formula hadn't been employed years of uncertainty could have been saved.

Good I am glad to hear this news.

But cut back a further 10% and they will still be ahead of the private sector.

How about the 29 days holiday ~ sick leave ~ flexi working ~ bank holidays ~ given days ~

Not bad when you add up the excellent pension package.

Get a grip wrote:

Bushwacker2011 wrote:
If you are right then it is also the end of Pembrokeshire!

Or possibly the start of Pembrookshire.

Sorry for the typo Pembrokeshire

martin9325 wrote:
The salaries talked about in private industry are those of a tiny number of people at the top of enormous companies, or private individuals who own companies that are doing incredibly well. 99.99% of people in private industry actually earn very modest salaries, most probably less than £20 or £25k and even directors of small local businesses often get £40 or £50k. Many of those working for local authorities are on a par with the private sector, but have better pensions. The unions keep insinuating that the massive pay reportedly earned by those at the top of vast multinational companies is the norm for the private sector. They aren't and those at the top in the public sector should accept that their pay has now far outstripped that of the bosses of the average company with the same sort of turnover as a County Council or NHS Hospital.

This is fair comment. However it is also fair to say that the often quoted £190k is as equally representative to the vast majority of those working in the public sector who earn far more modest salaries. My personal view is that it isn't massively helpful to simplistically compare "private" and "public" sectors - your own very fair comment would tend to back this up. If individuals feel they must compare then at least try to compare organisations of similar scale and most importantly jobs of similar worth.

Get a grip wrote:

timerousbeastie wrote:

Get a grip wrote:
All staff should take a 10% pay cut form the 1st Feb.

They will still be paid more than they are worth.

PCC staff are coming to the end of a three year pay freeze arguably in real terms a pay cut in excess of the 10% you arbitrarily suggest. There are a multitude of jobs within a Local Authority, most of which are statutory services, many of which are low paid, part time in caring or some times in unpleasant or hazardous conditions. Perhaps you could explain to these hard working people the rationale behind your assertions and criteria you have used to calculate their worth? I am sure you will be comforted to learn that from April around 16% of this workforce (not senior officers) face a pay cut as part of a Fair Pay review ordered by Government. I am sure you will be equally devastated that 18% will get a RAISE. This has been a long and complex procedure over around 8 years to determine what someone's labours are "worth". What a pity your great formula hadn't been employed years of uncertainty could have been saved.

Good I am glad to hear this news.

But cut back a further 10% and they will still be ahead of the private sector.

Depends on your point of reference. The issue for me should be the value of the contribution of the individual. This can be measured in wealth creating terms or in the benefit to society.The trouble with the latter is this is subjective.

This government has cleverly divided the debate in this country along public sector/private sector lines and focused all the criticism on the public sector with its talk of huge pensions (which only apply to a minority.) Could we not refuse to play their divide and rule game and instead look at inequality across society.

Pay differentials are now so huge that it is hard to accept that a hard days work from one human being can be valued at £50 whilst another human being can be deemed to be so valuable that they are paid £500 for that same 8 hours work.

If we are truly all in this together then tackling inequality across the whole of society should be the priority of any decent government or county council.

I cannot believe that independent councillors, if they were given full details, would find difficulty saving £1.6 million out of the PCC multi million pound budget.

We have become overgoverned at great cost to those in Pembrokeshire that are actually paying for the system. I would suggest one way of lowering the cost to the local ratepayer would be to cull the number of community councils and merge Pembrokeshire National Park Authority into PCC.

timerousbeastie wrote:

Get a grip wrote:

timerousbeastie wrote:

Get a grip wrote:
All staff should take a 10% pay cut form the 1st Feb.

They will still be paid more than they are worth.

PCC staff are coming to the end of a three year pay freeze arguably in real terms a pay cut in excess of the 10% you arbitrarily suggest. There are a multitude of jobs within a Local Authority, most of which are statutory services, many of which are low paid, part time in caring or some times in unpleasant or hazardous conditions. Perhaps you could explain to these hard working people the rationale behind your assertions and criteria you have used to calculate their worth? I am sure you will be comforted to learn that from April around 16% of this workforce (not senior officers) face a pay cut as part of a Fair Pay review ordered by Government. I am sure you will be equally devastated that 18% will get a RAISE. This has been a long and complex procedure over around 8 years to determine what someone's labours are "worth". What a pity your great formula hadn't been employed years of uncertainty could have been saved.

Good I am glad to hear this news.

But cut back a further 10% and they will still be ahead of the private sector.

Depends on your point of reference. The issue for me should be the value of the contribution of the individual. This can be measured in wealth creating terms or in the benefit to society.The trouble with the latter is this is subjective.

As with any organisation you will find individuals who work hard.

However in Local Authority there are too many who at best coast and at worst are incompetent.

The hard working individuals can not be correctly rewarded and the incompetent can not be sacked.

I think the best way to save £1.6 million is for the tax payers to do it, as will be too complicated for the PCC.

Lets say the population is 120,000 in Pembrokeshire and 20,000 don't pay council tax = 100,000 tax payers.

So if the tax payers cut the amount they pay by £16 ( 16 x 100,000 = £1.6 million) we have saved the PCC from getting the £1.6 million they would have had, so they won't have to save it !!!!

I think I could teach them a thing or two ; )

Good idea Neil but I think you might have exaggerated the number of households paying council tax quite substantially. Another idea for the pot .Bluestone is reported to be doing quite well. The County Council swopped £1.75 million they were owed for a 3% share in the company .Sell the equity back for £1.75million plus accrued interest- this year's problem solved!

timerousbeastie wrote:

Tttoommy wrote:

Bushwacker2011 wrote: If you are right then it is also the end of Pembrokeshire!

The "excuse" the ppl who earn £190K and the imbeciles who allowed it they are comparable with industry/commerce call it what you will. In the real world bad companies merge or are taken over by more efficient/succesful companies - this won't happen will it with councils until they are forced too?Greed is a much stronger impulse than decency after all :(

We are all entitled to have a view on salaries paid to those paid for by the public purse and most people would agree with you that the example quoted could be considered excessive.

Where I have an issue is your use of "real world" examples. Around 50% of the economy in Wales is public sector of some sort of another therefore it is very much "real world". In the pretend "real world" you talk about the leaders of companies good and "bad" recieve huge rewards regardless of performance. The idea that the free market is a meritocracy is patently false. It is NOT my assertion that the current situation in Local Government is ideal or even good. I would argue however that erroneous and simplistic comparisons with private industry couched in emotive and subjective language contribute little to the debate.

Just because a large proportion of Welsh ppl rely on the public sector doesn't mean we can equate them with the private sector.
Parry-jones salary was based on the false comparison that the job is worth the same as a FTSE company with the same sort of turnover - there is NO comparison. The Tescos of this world have to compete to get our money, If they're useless we go to a competitor. Councils are just given the money by Central Gov or take it off of us and If we don't like it we get taken to court.
Another point to remember is Councils are told where to spend most of their money - on schools, on services etc - so not a lot of "responsibility" really is there?

Two points worthy of note. Tescos and their ilk are commercial enterprises bent in making a profit whereas public bodies have statutory responsibilities - yes responsibilties!! B P-J is just one of some 6200 employees and is the exception rather than the rule. Most council staff are trying to eek a living like everyone else!

Tttoommy wrote:

timerousbeastie wrote:

Tttoommy wrote:

Bushwacker2011 wrote: If you are right then it is also the end of Pembrokeshire!

The "excuse" the ppl who earn £190K and the imbeciles who allowed it they are comparable with industry/commerce call it what you will. In the real world bad companies merge or are taken over by more efficient/succesful companies - this won't happen will it with councils until they are forced too?Greed is a much stronger impulse than decency after all :(

We are all entitled to have a view on salaries paid to those paid for by the public purse and most people would agree with you that the example quoted could be considered excessive.

Where I have an issue is your use of "real world" examples. Around 50% of the economy in Wales is public sector of some sort of another therefore it is very much "real world". In the pretend "real world" you talk about the leaders of companies good and "bad" recieve huge rewards regardless of performance. The idea that the free market is a meritocracy is patently false. It is NOT my assertion that the current situation in Local Government is ideal or even good. I would argue however that erroneous and simplistic comparisons with private industry couched in emotive and subjective language contribute little to the debate.

Just because a large proportion of Welsh ppl rely on the public sector doesn't mean we can equate them with the private sector.
Parry-jones salary was based on the false comparison that the job is worth the same as a FTSE company with the same sort of turnover - there is NO comparison. The Tescos of this world have to compete to get our money, If they're useless we go to a competitor. Councils are just given the money by Central Gov or take it off of us and If we don't like it we get taken to court.
Another point to remember is Councils are told where to spend most of their money - on schools, on services etc - so not a lot of "responsibility" really is there?

I prefer not to discuss individuals but I have no issue with your right to comment on any public servant's salary. That said,the salary for an FTSE CEO would be more likely £190k plus per month. Perhaps refinery managing director etc may be better analogy or even the senior partner in a law firm rather than a FTSE head. I was motivated to join this discussion as I felt the majority of PCC (and by implication public sector workers) were being unfairly stigmatised by some posters. I don't want to widen the argument ALL local authorities operate in a broadly similar manner and in some cases provide services people are unhappy with or have monopolies on services that some may wish to opt out of or shop elsewhere for. Every few years we are afforded an opportunity via the ballot box to broadly change this if we are unhappy yet for reasons that I cannot explain given the discontent on this board we seem to return the same old faces. Oh and the educational development of a child, the care and wellbeing of the frail and elderly, the safety of building developments, the protection of public via environmental health, the care of vulnerable adults and young people, the safe disposal of waste ARE considerable responsibilities undertaken by skilled and dedicated individuals earning a fraction of the oft quoted £190k.

With reference to timorous beastie's post I don't think anyone is being critical about County Council sharp end jobs.Certainly they don't seem overpaid to me.However most of us consider the C Ex's salary to be excessive for a small authority like Pembrokeshire and that criticism will undoubtedly continue until he retires.Hopefully if a replacement is considered necessary the Council will fix the salary at a more sensible level.

Thankyou KeanJo & others within this thread who have shown similar consideration. There was a poster who wanted a blanket cut of 10% for all PCC staff and subsequently attacked terms and conditions. This is what motivated me to respond. I acknowledge and fully understand anger regarding the remuneration of the CEX. I think it is sad that the media and Government seem so happy to set once set of modestly paid individuals on to another when we are currently living in according to OECD one of the most unequal societies in the developed world.People should not be attacked simply for choosing a career in any public service (or for that matter in private sector careers that attract criticism like banking or legal). I take heart from the fair minded comments in this thread and I despair for those who fall into the trap of attacking their fellow workers rather than the narrow self interests of the establishment classes.

Yawn.
You guys honestly.