Future of Haverfordwest Riverside market under doubt as council eyes up 'regeneration opportunity'

Western Telegraph: Haverfordwest Riverside Market Haverfordwest Riverside Market

THE future of all four of the county’s council-owned markets - including a proposal for Haverfordwest to be marketed as a “town centre regeneration opportunity” - is to be decided by cabinet on Monday (July 7).

Pembrokeshire County Council cabinet members approved a review into Haverfordwest, Tenby, Fishguard and Pembroke Dock markets last December.

A report due to go before cabinet includes a recommendation for Haverfordwest market –which sits between Bridge Street and Riverside Quay – to be promoted as a town centre regeneration opportunity for one year with the market continuing to trade during this time.

The report by the council’s director of development, Dr Steven Jones, refers to the market as “more of an indoor shopping arcade than a traditional market” and states that “retailers are regularly closed or shut at unexpected times leading to inconsistency and uncertainty”.

The building is also in need of “significant” investment.

More could be done with the market building, the report suggests, as part of a larger regeneration project but the council is not in a position to undertake such a scheme.

Council-owned land next to the market would be included in the marketing and “potential developers” would be encouraged to work with traders “to ascertain whether a new market could be provided within any scheme”.

The proposal for Tenby Market includes plans for the council to negotiate a lease for the Market Trust to take on the ownership.

In Fishguard, the council intends to either negotiate with traders to take over the operation of the Thursday market or for the Town Team to take ownership of the entire Town Hall building.

Pembroke Dock Market would be run as part of the Futureworks skills and employment initiative, subject to its grant funding “but that in the event of grand funding being withdrawn the market would close”.

The council has to save £20m over the next three years.

Comments (39)

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2:51pm Tue 1 Jul 14

Indeview J Hudson says...

Can somebody remind me who has been in charge of the Haverfordwest Market so that it is seen more of an indoor shopping arcade than a traditional market, both in terms of the goods sold and the layout of the units, and is therefore responsible for the state of the premises so that it now requires a significant level of investment?
It can only be due to the "dead hand" of PCC, both councillors and senior officers, with a consistent and certain disinterest and lack of vision for the town, coupled with a track record of little or no property maintenance, both councillors and senior officers.
It is apparent that the Council is only keen to divest itself of all community assets, Foley House, Former Jail and the town's museum, Scotchwell car park ,and no doubt the dilapidated and disused Library in due course.
It cost the Council £187,000 in 2013/14 to run the Markets with £153,000 being raised by direct income, leaving £34,000 to fall to be met by us through Council Tax. This is the subsidy the Council cannot, does not want, to afford.
The report by the Director of Development comments that many traditional market have declined in recent years.
Is he not aware of any that remain vibrant sustainable assets to their towns with imaginative and flexible approaches to lettings and rentals. Such relatively small opportunities for vendors could be the starting point for new businesses.
This Council just cannot be bothered. What are the views of our town County Councillors ?

We have had Haverfordwest THI 1, and now 2. What has been achieved and what will be achieved?
Can somebody remind me who has been in charge of the Haverfordwest Market so that it is seen more of an indoor shopping arcade than a traditional market, both in terms of the goods sold and the layout of the units, and is therefore responsible for the state of the premises so that it now requires a significant level of investment? It can only be due to the "dead hand" of PCC, both councillors and senior officers, with a consistent and certain disinterest and lack of vision for the town, coupled with a track record of little or no property maintenance, both councillors and senior officers. It is apparent that the Council is only keen to divest itself of all community assets, Foley House, Former Jail and the town's museum, Scotchwell car park ,and no doubt the dilapidated and disused Library in due course. It cost the Council £187,000 in 2013/14 to run the Markets with £153,000 being raised by direct income, leaving £34,000 to fall to be met by us through Council Tax. This is the subsidy the Council cannot, does not want, to afford. The report by the Director of Development comments that many traditional market have declined in recent years. Is he not aware of any that remain vibrant sustainable assets to their towns with imaginative and flexible approaches to lettings and rentals. Such relatively small opportunities for vendors could be the starting point for new businesses. This Council just cannot be bothered. What are the views of our town County Councillors ? We have had Haverfordwest THI 1, and now 2. What has been achieved and what will be achieved? Indeview J Hudson
  • Score: 16

4:00pm Tue 1 Jul 14

Flashbang says...

How the hell did the PCC get hold of Tenby market in the first place? Keep PCC away from all business as their incompetency and inability to do the simplest of tasks is well documented.
How the hell did the PCC get hold of Tenby market in the first place? Keep PCC away from all business as their incompetency and inability to do the simplest of tasks is well documented. Flashbang
  • Score: 15

5:34pm Tue 1 Jul 14

Justiceforall says...

PCC should keep their hands off the markets, stall holders have invested years of their lives in building up their businesses the market should be subsidised to support people livelyhoods. The Cabinet do not have enough people of quality to make this decision, they voted to continue filling of CEO's back pocket and pension pot, dont forget.
PCC should keep their hands off the markets, stall holders have invested years of their lives in building up their businesses the market should be subsidised to support people livelyhoods. The Cabinet do not have enough people of quality to make this decision, they voted to continue filling of CEO's back pocket and pension pot, dont forget. Justiceforall
  • Score: 3

9:12pm Tue 1 Jul 14

Welshman23 says...

Perhaps BPJ and farmer Adams need new offices so an ideal location. The council have spent a fortune in Bridge Street with the block paving. If you add the cost of reducing the lanes going up to the hospital and putting a bus stop. Loonies running the council.
Perhaps BPJ and farmer Adams need new offices so an ideal location. The council have spent a fortune in Bridge Street with the block paving. If you add the cost of reducing the lanes going up to the hospital and putting a bus stop. Loonies running the council. Welshman23
  • Score: 6

11:53pm Tue 1 Jul 14

Gogledd says...

who keeps voting welshmans and justiceforalls valid comments down...someone in PCC...?
who keeps voting welshmans and justiceforalls valid comments down...someone in PCC...? Gogledd
  • Score: 5

11:57pm Tue 1 Jul 14

Gogledd says...

Just adding here that what PCC should do instead is to try to do everything to support the market. Take a look at the Market in Carmarthen. It has had a complete makeover and its thriving as is Carmarthen but then we got back to the old argument that if the Kremlin had been built up town then we would have room for the retail side of it to expand. Had people not kept Mark and Spencers out years ago our town centre may have been a vibrant shopping centre not a crumbling assortment of buildings who are in desperate need of repair and maintenance....
Just adding here that what PCC should do instead is to try to do everything to support the market. Take a look at the Market in Carmarthen. It has had a complete makeover and its thriving as is Carmarthen but then we got back to the old argument that if the Kremlin had been built up town then we would have room for the retail side of it to expand. Had people not kept Mark and Spencers out years ago our town centre may have been a vibrant shopping centre not a crumbling assortment of buildings who are in desperate need of repair and maintenance.... Gogledd
  • Score: 9

8:31am Wed 2 Jul 14

Indeview J Hudson says...

I see that The Director of Development is recommending that a town centre regeneration opportunity be promoted for a period of a year, with the market being allowed to continue trading during this time.
What exactly is this town centre regeneration opportunity?
Does it include provision, by a "preferred developer" for a new library?

In my earlier diatribe I forgot to include the Shire Hall which was also sold off.
I see that The Director of Development is recommending that a town centre regeneration opportunity be promoted for a period of a year, with the market being allowed to continue trading during this time. What exactly is this town centre regeneration opportunity? Does it include provision, by a "preferred developer" for a new library? In my earlier diatribe I forgot to include the Shire Hall which was also sold off. Indeview J Hudson
  • Score: 3

9:05am Wed 2 Jul 14

Gogledd says...

I believe the preferred developer is Conygar ( New Sainsburys Dev ) they put in a planning app to develop the Garage site and Riverside area a year ago.
I believe the preferred developer is Conygar ( New Sainsburys Dev ) they put in a planning app to develop the Garage site and Riverside area a year ago. Gogledd
  • Score: 2

10:52am Wed 2 Jul 14

Jonathan Nutting says...

I am keen for the council to sell as many of its so called assets as possible. Put their running back into the hands of others (hopefully locals). To say the least their running has been inept. No vision no investment etc etc.

Selling I am afraid may be a bad thing for some. In the long run they could be the big hope especially for Haverfordwest. Any new blood/real investment in these areas are desperately needed.

I am also keen that the authority sell their holdings of Tenby and Fishguard harbours. Preferably to local stake holders. Locals owning local assets. People who know what to do with them and develop them in the best interest of their town.

We need to debate all these issues locally. If the Welsh councils are rationalised what happens ?
I am keen for the council to sell as many of its so called assets as possible. Put their running back into the hands of others (hopefully locals). To say the least their running has been inept. No vision no investment etc etc. Selling I am afraid may be a bad thing for some. In the long run they could be the big hope especially for Haverfordwest. Any new blood/real investment in these areas are desperately needed. I am also keen that the authority sell their holdings of Tenby and Fishguard harbours. Preferably to local stake holders. Locals owning local assets. People who know what to do with them and develop them in the best interest of their town. We need to debate all these issues locally. If the Welsh councils are rationalised what happens ? Jonathan Nutting
  • Score: 0

11:35am Wed 2 Jul 14

Indeview J Hudson says...

Open public debates - in Pembrokeshire, whatever next?
Is this a policy of the new Pembrokeshire Alliance Group of 3 councillors?

Does it stretch as far as selling off Council owned assets to local groups ( where possible) rather than to Council preferred developers?
Open public debates - in Pembrokeshire, whatever next? Is this a policy of the new Pembrokeshire Alliance Group of 3 councillors? Does it stretch as far as selling off Council owned assets to local groups ( where possible) rather than to Council preferred developers? Indeview J Hudson
  • Score: 2

12:14pm Wed 2 Jul 14

Welshman23 says...

Gogledd wrote:
who keeps voting welshmans and justiceforalls valid comments down...someone in PCC...?
Thank you Gogledd I am attempting to get un popular like BPJ and farmer Adams.
2017 nearly here.
[quote][p][bold]Gogledd[/bold] wrote: who keeps voting welshmans and justiceforalls valid comments down...someone in PCC...?[/p][/quote]Thank you Gogledd I am attempting to get un popular like BPJ and farmer Adams. 2017 nearly here. Welshman23
  • Score: -2

12:37pm Wed 2 Jul 14

seaveiw says...

Gogledd wrote:
I believe the preferred developer is Conygar ( New Sainsburys Dev ) they put in a planning app to develop the Garage site and Riverside area a year ago.
Yes I too had heard about this too heard too about the quay side
[quote][p][bold]Gogledd[/bold] wrote: I believe the preferred developer is Conygar ( New Sainsburys Dev ) they put in a planning app to develop the Garage site and Riverside area a year ago.[/p][/quote]Yes I too had heard about this too heard too about the quay side seaveiw
  • Score: 0

12:43pm Wed 2 Jul 14

chizy says...

Gogledd wrote:
who keeps voting welshmans and justiceforalls valid comments down...someone in PCC...?
Probably.
I don't mind being voted down, it means I'm hitting a nerve.
So, to get the ball rolling, I'll vote myself down!!!!! ;)
[quote][p][bold]Gogledd[/bold] wrote: who keeps voting welshmans and justiceforalls valid comments down...someone in PCC...?[/p][/quote]Probably. I don't mind being voted down, it means I'm hitting a nerve. So, to get the ball rolling, I'll vote myself down!!!!! ;) chizy
  • Score: -15

12:45pm Wed 2 Jul 14

Flashbang says...

Jonathan Nutting wrote:
I am keen for the council to sell as many of its so called assets as possible. Put their running back into the hands of others (hopefully locals). To say the least their running has been inept. No vision no investment etc etc.

Selling I am afraid may be a bad thing for some. In the long run they could be the big hope especially for Haverfordwest. Any new blood/real investment in these areas are desperately needed.

I am also keen that the authority sell their holdings of Tenby and Fishguard harbours. Preferably to local stake holders. Locals owning local assets. People who know what to do with them and develop them in the best interest of their town.

We need to debate all these issues locally. If the Welsh councils are rationalised what happens ?
Again I ask how did PCC get control of these assets in the first place, Tenby harbour should be well out of their remit. Any selling of assets needs to be done under the highest scrutiny possible to prove there is no impropriety. Any shady deals should be punishable by the maximum jail time possible.
[quote][p][bold]Jonathan Nutting[/bold] wrote: I am keen for the council to sell as many of its so called assets as possible. Put their running back into the hands of others (hopefully locals). To say the least their running has been inept. No vision no investment etc etc. Selling I am afraid may be a bad thing for some. In the long run they could be the big hope especially for Haverfordwest. Any new blood/real investment in these areas are desperately needed. I am also keen that the authority sell their holdings of Tenby and Fishguard harbours. Preferably to local stake holders. Locals owning local assets. People who know what to do with them and develop them in the best interest of their town. We need to debate all these issues locally. If the Welsh councils are rationalised what happens ?[/p][/quote]Again I ask how did PCC get control of these assets in the first place, Tenby harbour should be well out of their remit. Any selling of assets needs to be done under the highest scrutiny possible to prove there is no impropriety. Any shady deals should be punishable by the maximum jail time possible. Flashbang
  • Score: 7

12:56pm Wed 2 Jul 14

Indeview J Hudson says...

Probably these assets were passed by transfer to PCC on Local Government re-organisation when the former Preseli and South Pembs Councils were abolished along with Dyfed .

Councillor Nutting's proposal about the sale of Council assets is worth exploring.
Would this include transfer, by whatever means open to PCC, to the community or community groups at less than the market value?
If the community, however defined, still retained or held the capital asset, would this be a bad thing?
Probably these assets were passed by transfer to PCC on Local Government re-organisation when the former Preseli and South Pembs Councils were abolished along with Dyfed . Councillor Nutting's proposal about the sale of Council assets is worth exploring. Would this include transfer, by whatever means open to PCC, to the community or community groups at less than the market value? If the community, however defined, still retained or held the capital asset, would this be a bad thing? Indeview J Hudson
  • Score: 1

1:52pm Wed 2 Jul 14

summary says...

And whose brilliant idea was it to move the traditional Saturday market from Market Street to the Riverside and turn it into a 6 day shopping arcade?
And whose brilliant idea was it to move the traditional Saturday market from Market Street to the Riverside and turn it into a 6 day shopping arcade? summary
  • Score: 4

5:41pm Wed 2 Jul 14

Tttoommy says...

Welshman23 wrote:
Gogledd wrote:
who keeps voting welshmans and justiceforalls valid comments down...someone in PCC...?
Thank you Gogledd I am attempting to get un popular like BPJ and farmer Adams.
2017 nearly here.
Sorry, youv'e got off to a bad start - no history of being a complete and utter **** for a start ;-)

Mind yoyu if you hoping to get as rich as them from destroying Pembrokeshire I'm sure you'll catch up :)
[quote][p][bold]Welshman23[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Gogledd[/bold] wrote: who keeps voting welshmans and justiceforalls valid comments down...someone in PCC...?[/p][/quote]Thank you Gogledd I am attempting to get un popular like BPJ and farmer Adams. 2017 nearly here.[/p][/quote]Sorry, youv'e got off to a bad start - no history of being a complete and utter **** for a start ;-) Mind yoyu if you hoping to get as rich as them from destroying Pembrokeshire I'm sure you'll catch up :) Tttoommy
  • Score: -3

5:48pm Wed 2 Jul 14

Tttoommy says...

Flashbang wrote:
Jonathan Nutting wrote:
I am keen for the council to sell as many of its so called assets as possible. Put their running back into the hands of others (hopefully locals). To say the least their running has been inept. No vision no investment etc etc.

Selling I am afraid may be a bad thing for some. In the long run they could be the big hope especially for Haverfordwest. Any new blood/real investment in these areas are desperately needed.

I am also keen that the authority sell their holdings of Tenby and Fishguard harbours. Preferably to local stake holders. Locals owning local assets. People who know what to do with them and develop them in the best interest of their town.

We need to debate all these issues locally. If the Welsh councils are rationalised what happens ?
Again I ask how did PCC get control of these assets in the first place, Tenby harbour should be well out of their remit. Any selling of assets needs to be done under the highest scrutiny possible to prove there is no impropriety. Any shady deals should be punishable by the maximum jail time possible.
Think they're pretty safe don't you - I'm sure they are innocent of all wrong doings but It might have been good that If a Police force was conducting an investigation then at least some one should have actually been interviewed?

The Police really have come out of this very very badly haven't they?
[quote][p][bold]Flashbang[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jonathan Nutting[/bold] wrote: I am keen for the council to sell as many of its so called assets as possible. Put their running back into the hands of others (hopefully locals). To say the least their running has been inept. No vision no investment etc etc. Selling I am afraid may be a bad thing for some. In the long run they could be the big hope especially for Haverfordwest. Any new blood/real investment in these areas are desperately needed. I am also keen that the authority sell their holdings of Tenby and Fishguard harbours. Preferably to local stake holders. Locals owning local assets. People who know what to do with them and develop them in the best interest of their town. We need to debate all these issues locally. If the Welsh councils are rationalised what happens ?[/p][/quote]Again I ask how did PCC get control of these assets in the first place, Tenby harbour should be well out of their remit. Any selling of assets needs to be done under the highest scrutiny possible to prove there is no impropriety. Any shady deals should be punishable by the maximum jail time possible.[/p][/quote]Think they're pretty safe don't you - I'm sure they are innocent of all wrong doings but It might have been good that If a Police force was conducting an investigation then at least some one should have actually been interviewed? The Police really have come out of this very very badly haven't they? Tttoommy
  • Score: -7

9:20am Thu 3 Jul 14

Ginny nz says...

Got to say that they aren't that good and probably won't be missed . I only used the Haverfordwest one when I wanted to dodge the rain !!
Got to say that they aren't that good and probably won't be missed . I only used the Haverfordwest one when I wanted to dodge the rain !! Ginny nz
  • Score: 3

3:19pm Thu 3 Jul 14

Dave Edwards says...

As the most read item for the last 2 days has been about the child abusing youth worker, why aren't we allowed to comment?
Too close to BPJ who kicked the whistleblower into touch?
As the most read item for the last 2 days has been about the child abusing youth worker, why aren't we allowed to comment? Too close to BPJ who kicked the whistleblower into touch? Dave Edwards
  • Score: 1

4:50pm Thu 3 Jul 14

Tttoommy says...

Tttoommy wrote:
Flashbang wrote:
Jonathan Nutting wrote:
I am keen for the council to sell as many of its so called assets as possible. Put their running back into the hands of others (hopefully locals). To say the least their running has been inept. No vision no investment etc etc.

Selling I am afraid may be a bad thing for some. In the long run they could be the big hope especially for Haverfordwest. Any new blood/real investment in these areas are desperately needed.

I am also keen that the authority sell their holdings of Tenby and Fishguard harbours. Preferably to local stake holders. Locals owning local assets. People who know what to do with them and develop them in the best interest of their town.

We need to debate all these issues locally. If the Welsh councils are rationalised what happens ?
Again I ask how did PCC get control of these assets in the first place, Tenby harbour should be well out of their remit. Any selling of assets needs to be done under the highest scrutiny possible to prove there is no impropriety. Any shady deals should be punishable by the maximum jail time possible.
Think they're pretty safe don't you - I'm sure they are innocent of all wrong doings but It might have been good that If a Police force was conducting an investigation then at least some one should have actually been interviewed?

The Police really have come out of this very very badly haven't they?
By the great architect, being careful and crabs at high tide and all that crud -

I think what we're saying is that the Police have come out of all this as well as Pembs CC with their heads held high and reputation whiter than white with no PROOF of any wrong doings - just a pity they didn't even ask anyone anything innit?
[quote][p][bold]Tttoommy[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Flashbang[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jonathan Nutting[/bold] wrote: I am keen for the council to sell as many of its so called assets as possible. Put their running back into the hands of others (hopefully locals). To say the least their running has been inept. No vision no investment etc etc. Selling I am afraid may be a bad thing for some. In the long run they could be the big hope especially for Haverfordwest. Any new blood/real investment in these areas are desperately needed. I am also keen that the authority sell their holdings of Tenby and Fishguard harbours. Preferably to local stake holders. Locals owning local assets. People who know what to do with them and develop them in the best interest of their town. We need to debate all these issues locally. If the Welsh councils are rationalised what happens ?[/p][/quote]Again I ask how did PCC get control of these assets in the first place, Tenby harbour should be well out of their remit. Any selling of assets needs to be done under the highest scrutiny possible to prove there is no impropriety. Any shady deals should be punishable by the maximum jail time possible.[/p][/quote]Think they're pretty safe don't you - I'm sure they are innocent of all wrong doings but It might have been good that If a Police force was conducting an investigation then at least some one should have actually been interviewed? The Police really have come out of this very very badly haven't they?[/p][/quote]By the great architect, being careful and crabs at high tide and all that crud - I think what we're saying is that the Police have come out of all this as well as Pembs CC with their heads held high and reputation whiter than white with no PROOF of any wrong doings - just a pity they didn't even ask anyone anything innit? Tttoommy
  • Score: -3

5:41pm Thu 3 Jul 14

Jonathan Nutting says...

Most of these assets will have come into the hands by the same ciruitous route that Barnards Tower in Pembroke. The tower was given to pembroke borough council. Ownership then went to south Pembs. When PCC came into being it went to them as successor authority. The Haggers who owned the tower originally, never intended for this to happen. They were upset when PCC started to sell it. Now the town has to go through the mill to try and prove it can use it etc (Does not matter that PCC sat on it for twenty odd years and did nothing). I tried to argue that it was the towns asset and that PCC Had no right to sell it etc etc. Might as well have saved my breath.

I assume all these other assets came into PCC hands in a similar way.

That is not the case of the farms portfolio PCC own. But hay! That is another story :) Not keen on selling those'family jewels' ;).
Most of these assets will have come into the hands by the same ciruitous route that Barnards Tower in Pembroke. The tower was given to pembroke borough council. Ownership then went to south Pembs. When PCC came into being it went to them as successor authority. The Haggers who owned the tower originally, never intended for this to happen. They were upset when PCC started to sell it. Now the town has to go through the mill to try and prove it can use it etc (Does not matter that PCC sat on it for twenty odd years and did nothing). I tried to argue that it was the towns asset and that PCC Had no right to sell it etc etc. Might as well have saved my breath. I assume all these other assets came into PCC hands in a similar way. That is not the case of the farms portfolio PCC own. But hay! That is another story :) Not keen on selling those'family jewels' ;). Jonathan Nutting
  • Score: 2

5:42pm Thu 3 Jul 14

Flashbang says...

My post "Again I ask how did PCC get control of these assets in the first place, Tenby harbour should be well out of their remit. Any selling of assets needs to be done under the highest scrutiny possible to prove there is no impropriety. Any shady deals should be punishable by the maximum jail time possible."

Reply. "Think they're pretty safe don't you - I'm sure they are innocent of all wrong doings but It might have been good that If a Police force was conducting an investigation then at least some one should have actually been interviewed?"
Tttoommy, Please don't presume to know what I think to turn my post into the opposite of what it is.
My post "Again I ask how did PCC get control of these assets in the first place, Tenby harbour should be well out of their remit. Any selling of assets needs to be done under the highest scrutiny possible to prove there is no impropriety. Any shady deals should be punishable by the maximum jail time possible." Reply. "Think they're pretty safe don't you - I'm sure they are innocent of all wrong doings but It might have been good that If a Police force was conducting an investigation then at least some one should have actually been interviewed?" Tttoommy, Please don't presume to know what I think to turn my post into the opposite of what it is. Flashbang
  • Score: 0

6:00pm Thu 3 Jul 14

Jonathan Nutting says...

The obvious big money earner for PCC is the Cleddau Bridge. Nearly two million a year. The bridge users subsidise the rest of Pembrokeshire's population through this stealth tax. PCC put every barrier they can to make sure this cash cow stays firmly in their hands. Never heard them properly negotiating with the Welsh Government to trunk the road and get rid of the tolls completely . But if you are not a bridge user than it easier to ignore this particular problem as it keeps your council tax down :)

Wonder if this new Haven Enterprise Zone quango intend to do something about it? Seems very strange that a real barrier to free trade between both sides of the Haven is allowed, when they are trying to grow business' jobs etc. wonder what explanation for inaction will be given or will they just try and ignore it and hope no one notices.
The obvious big money earner for PCC is the Cleddau Bridge. Nearly two million a year. The bridge users subsidise the rest of Pembrokeshire's population through this stealth tax. PCC put every barrier they can to make sure this cash cow stays firmly in their hands. Never heard them properly negotiating with the Welsh Government to trunk the road and get rid of the tolls completely . But if you are not a bridge user than it easier to ignore this particular problem as it keeps your council tax down :) Wonder if this new Haven Enterprise Zone quango intend to do something about it? Seems very strange that a real barrier to free trade between both sides of the Haven is allowed, when they are trying to grow business' jobs etc. wonder what explanation for inaction will be given or will they just try and ignore it and hope no one notices. Jonathan Nutting
  • Score: -6

6:11pm Thu 3 Jul 14

Jonathan Nutting says...

Flash bang I can assure you that the Economy O&S will keep a very close eye on what goes on. I am on this committee . I know it may surprise one or two of you but I have every confidence in all members of this committee to do the right thing for the people of Pembrokeshire. Michael John (the new chairman) has my full confidence. He will not allow anything to happen that is not above board.

I am sorry, I do not know how PCC got hold of some of its assets. I will ask about the harbours.
Flash bang I can assure you that the Economy O&S will keep a very close eye on what goes on. I am on this committee . I know it may surprise one or two of you but I have every confidence in all members of this committee to do the right thing for the people of Pembrokeshire. Michael John (the new chairman) has my full confidence. He will not allow anything to happen that is not above board. I am sorry, I do not know how PCC got hold of some of its assets. I will ask about the harbours. Jonathan Nutting
  • Score: -3

6:26pm Thu 3 Jul 14

Flashbang says...

Jonathan Nutting wrote:
Flash bang I can assure you that the Economy O&S will keep a very close eye on what goes on. I am on this committee . I know it may surprise one or two of you but I have every confidence in all members of this committee to do the right thing for the people of Pembrokeshire. Michael John (the new chairman) has my full confidence. He will not allow anything to happen that is not above board.

I am sorry, I do not know how PCC got hold of some of its assets. I will ask about the harbours.
Sorry, but reading "Independent" after yours and Michael John's name on the list of councillors does not inspire any confidence in me or I suspect anyone else in Pembrokeshire who has any inkling of what PCC gets up to. Prove you are working for the people of Pembrokeshire then I might believe you. Give Tenby harbour back to the people of Tenby.
[quote][p][bold]Jonathan Nutting[/bold] wrote: Flash bang I can assure you that the Economy O&S will keep a very close eye on what goes on. I am on this committee . I know it may surprise one or two of you but I have every confidence in all members of this committee to do the right thing for the people of Pembrokeshire. Michael John (the new chairman) has my full confidence. He will not allow anything to happen that is not above board. I am sorry, I do not know how PCC got hold of some of its assets. I will ask about the harbours.[/p][/quote]Sorry, but reading "Independent" after yours and Michael John's name on the list of councillors does not inspire any confidence in me or I suspect anyone else in Pembrokeshire who has any inkling of what PCC gets up to. Prove you are working for the people of Pembrokeshire then I might believe you. Give Tenby harbour back to the people of Tenby. Flashbang
  • Score: 0

1:41am Fri 4 Jul 14

Jonathan Nutting says...

I am not independent. I'm a member of the Pembrokeshire Alliance. You can read what we stand for on our website.
I am not independent. I'm a member of the Pembrokeshire Alliance. You can read what we stand for on our website. Jonathan Nutting
  • Score: -1

9:30am Fri 4 Jul 14

Flashbang says...

Jonathan Nutting wrote:
I am not independent. I'm a member of the Pembrokeshire Alliance. You can read what we stand for on our website.
Source of info below:
http://www.westernte
legraph.co.uk/li/cou
ncils.detail.Welsh Unitary-Pembrokeshir
e Council


Pembroke: St. Michael

Cllr Jonathan Nutting (Independent)

Pembrokeshire County Council
County Hall
Haverfordwest
Pembrokeshire
SA61 1TP

Tel: 01646 682537

Email: cllr.jonathan.nuttin
g@pembrokeshire.gov.
uk
[quote][p][bold]Jonathan Nutting[/bold] wrote: I am not independent. I'm a member of the Pembrokeshire Alliance. You can read what we stand for on our website.[/p][/quote]Source of info below: http://www.westernte legraph.co.uk/li/cou ncils.detail.Welsh Unitary-Pembrokeshir e Council Pembroke: St. Michael Cllr Jonathan Nutting (Independent) Pembrokeshire County Council County Hall Haverfordwest Pembrokeshire SA61 1TP Tel: 01646 682537 Email: cllr.jonathan.nuttin g@pembrokeshire.gov. uk Flashbang
  • Score: 0

11:46am Fri 4 Jul 14

Jonathan Nutting says...

Ah well as usual PCC has not updated its website.

Maybe I am a sneaky, closet IPPG member flash bang . I'll leave you to work it out ;)
Ah well as usual PCC has not updated its website. Maybe I am a sneaky, closet IPPG member flash bang . I'll leave you to work it out ;) Jonathan Nutting
  • Score: -1

3:51pm Fri 4 Jul 14

Tttoommy says...

Jonathan Nutting wrote:
Ah well as usual PCC has not updated its website.

Maybe I am a sneaky, closet IPPG member flash bang . I'll leave you to work it out ;)
You weren't on e of the 34 who voted to keep Bryn Jones safe so you're OK with me :)
[quote][p][bold]Jonathan Nutting[/bold] wrote: Ah well as usual PCC has not updated its website. Maybe I am a sneaky, closet IPPG member flash bang . I'll leave you to work it out ;)[/p][/quote]You weren't on e of the 34 who voted to keep Bryn Jones safe so you're OK with me :) Tttoommy
  • Score: -1

5:55pm Fri 4 Jul 14

Jonathan Nutting says...

I assume my negative score on the Cleddau Bridge is a result of people being concerned about their pocket.

If I'm wrong come out from behind your an ananimity and say why you disagree!

I am interested because I shall never stop until it is free for all users. If you give good reasons for the toll then I will consider them. I am not blinkered. Are you?
I assume my negative score on the Cleddau Bridge is a result of people being concerned about their pocket. If I'm wrong come out from behind your an ananimity and say why you disagree! I am interested because I shall never stop until it is free for all users. If you give good reasons for the toll then I will consider them. I am not blinkered. Are you? Jonathan Nutting
  • Score: -4

6:47pm Fri 4 Jul 14

Flashbang says...

Jonathan Nutting, I was going on the information at hand, if you are against BPJ and his lapdogs then I support you. Keep asking questions about shady deals and expose the vermin on the council. I'm still not convinced about your mate though, if he has a post with responsibility then I'm cynical as to the quid pro quo.
Jonathan Nutting, I was going on the information at hand, if you are against BPJ and his lapdogs then I support you. Keep asking questions about shady deals and expose the vermin on the council. I'm still not convinced about your mate though, if he has a post with responsibility then I'm cynical as to the quid pro quo. Flashbang
  • Score: 1

8:20am Sat 5 Jul 14

Indeview J Hudson says...

When PCC " inherited" the Cleddau Bridge from Dyfed, it took on responsibility for its debts, maintenance and operation under the provisions of the Dyfed Act 1987, which still apply.
This provides that it costs ratepayers nothing and that all costs are recovered from toll charges.
There are two types of debt involved , 1. the original capital cost ( including interest) of building the bridge including repayment of the interest free loan by Welsh Government when the bridge collapsed during construction. 2. An accumulating debt arising from annual losses on operational costs which are not able to be met from toll charges. Both of these debts have to be repaid over time, through toll charges.
When PCC took over "The Bridge" in 1996, this accumulating debt stood at about £16million pounds. The toll charges were set in1993 by Dyfed and have never been been reviewed. At the end of the 2012/13 financial year this debt had grown to £53.4m at 31/3/12. Under the provisions of the ruling Act still in force, this money is owed to Council Taxpayers by bridge users through tolls.
Somehow, the statutory Trading Account for the Bridge in the2012/13 Accounts shows an annual loss of £4.274m , ( £7.71m exp - income £2,897) whereas the 2012/13 Monitoring Report To Cabinet reveals a profit of £1.893 ( exp £1.004 - income £2.897).

What is the true financial position?
When PCC " inherited" the Cleddau Bridge from Dyfed, it took on responsibility for its debts, maintenance and operation under the provisions of the Dyfed Act 1987, which still apply. This provides that it costs ratepayers nothing and that all costs are recovered from toll charges. There are two types of debt involved , 1. the original capital cost ( including interest) of building the bridge including repayment of the interest free loan by Welsh Government when the bridge collapsed during construction. 2. An accumulating debt arising from annual losses on operational costs which are not able to be met from toll charges. Both of these debts have to be repaid over time, through toll charges. When PCC took over "The Bridge" in 1996, this accumulating debt stood at about £16million pounds. The toll charges were set in1993 by Dyfed and have never been been reviewed. At the end of the 2012/13 financial year this debt had grown to £53.4m at 31/3/12. Under the provisions of the ruling Act still in force, this money is owed to Council Taxpayers by bridge users through tolls. Somehow, the statutory Trading Account for the Bridge in the2012/13 Accounts shows an annual loss of £4.274m , ( £7.71m exp - income £2,897) whereas the 2012/13 Monitoring Report To Cabinet reveals a profit of £1.893 ( exp £1.004 - income £2.897). What is the true financial position? Indeview J Hudson
  • Score: 2

1:53pm Sat 5 Jul 14

Tttoommy says...

Dave Edwards wrote:
As the most read item for the last 2 days has been about the child abusing youth worker, why aren't we allowed to comment?
Too close to BPJ who kicked the whistleblower into touch?
Are you really claiming that someone from the Council shut their ears to criminal wrong doing ?
[quote][p][bold]Dave Edwards[/bold] wrote: As the most read item for the last 2 days has been about the child abusing youth worker, why aren't we allowed to comment? Too close to BPJ who kicked the whistleblower into touch?[/p][/quote]Are you really claiming that someone from the Council shut their ears to criminal wrong doing ? Tttoommy
  • Score: -1

4:42pm Sat 5 Jul 14

JonnyBlueJeans says...

Indeview J Hudson wrote:
When PCC " inherited" the Cleddau Bridge from Dyfed, it took on responsibility for its debts, maintenance and operation under the provisions of the Dyfed Act 1987, which still apply.
This provides that it costs ratepayers nothing and that all costs are recovered from toll charges.
There are two types of debt involved , 1. the original capital cost ( including interest) of building the bridge including repayment of the interest free loan by Welsh Government when the bridge collapsed during construction. 2. An accumulating debt arising from annual losses on operational costs which are not able to be met from toll charges. Both of these debts have to be repaid over time, through toll charges.
When PCC took over "The Bridge" in 1996, this accumulating debt stood at about £16million pounds. The toll charges were set in1993 by Dyfed and have never been been reviewed. At the end of the 2012/13 financial year this debt had grown to £53.4m at 31/3/12. Under the provisions of the ruling Act still in force, this money is owed to Council Taxpayers by bridge users through tolls.
Somehow, the statutory Trading Account for the Bridge in the2012/13 Accounts shows an annual loss of £4.274m , ( £7.71m exp - income £2,897) whereas the 2012/13 Monitoring Report To Cabinet reveals a profit of £1.893 ( exp £1.004 - income £2.897).

What is the true financial position?
Where on Earth did they borrow the money, Wonga?
[quote][p][bold]Indeview J Hudson[/bold] wrote: When PCC " inherited" the Cleddau Bridge from Dyfed, it took on responsibility for its debts, maintenance and operation under the provisions of the Dyfed Act 1987, which still apply. This provides that it costs ratepayers nothing and that all costs are recovered from toll charges. There are two types of debt involved , 1. the original capital cost ( including interest) of building the bridge including repayment of the interest free loan by Welsh Government when the bridge collapsed during construction. 2. An accumulating debt arising from annual losses on operational costs which are not able to be met from toll charges. Both of these debts have to be repaid over time, through toll charges. When PCC took over "The Bridge" in 1996, this accumulating debt stood at about £16million pounds. The toll charges were set in1993 by Dyfed and have never been been reviewed. At the end of the 2012/13 financial year this debt had grown to £53.4m at 31/3/12. Under the provisions of the ruling Act still in force, this money is owed to Council Taxpayers by bridge users through tolls. Somehow, the statutory Trading Account for the Bridge in the2012/13 Accounts shows an annual loss of £4.274m , ( £7.71m exp - income £2,897) whereas the 2012/13 Monitoring Report To Cabinet reveals a profit of £1.893 ( exp £1.004 - income £2.897). What is the true financial position?[/p][/quote]Where on Earth did they borrow the money, Wonga? JonnyBlueJeans
  • Score: 0

9:57am Sun 6 Jul 14

Indeview J Hudson says...

The ruling Act of Parliament ( as originally promoted by the former Pembrokeshire county council in 1965) which enabled the bridge to be built, and which was revised by Dyfed in 1987) provides that the accumulated deficit ( that is the accumulated and accumulating operational annual losses) should be charged a fixed 10% interest rate twice a year.
Although the Council has congratulated itself on not raising the toll charges that it inherited, it has not been able to provide any evidence that this policy was ever formally approved by the Council.
I have also been told that the accumulated debt ( which is required to be calculated and paid back to council taxpayers by the Act) does not really exist because it is "notional" calculation.
The Council however, is on record as requiring this £53m + debt to be re-paid to the Council by any organisation that takes over the Bridge in the future.
I think that the Council has been remiss in not seeking to get the provisions of the Act revised so that the finances of the bridge, which clearly cannot work ( ie toll charges paying for the annual and accumulated cost of the Bridge) are put on a sustainable and realistic footing.
This may mean that the Council loses the benefit of some £2m a year from the toll income in its Accounts which reduces the Council Tax requirement.
Is the lowest Council Tax in Wales claim based on fact or fiction?
The ruling Act of Parliament ( as originally promoted by the former Pembrokeshire county council in 1965) which enabled the bridge to be built, and which was revised by Dyfed in 1987) provides that the accumulated deficit ( that is the accumulated and accumulating operational annual losses) should be charged a fixed 10% interest rate twice a year. Although the Council has congratulated itself on not raising the toll charges that it inherited, it has not been able to provide any evidence that this policy was ever formally approved by the Council. I have also been told that the accumulated debt ( which is required to be calculated and paid back to council taxpayers by the Act) does not really exist because it is "notional" calculation. The Council however, is on record as requiring this £53m + debt to be re-paid to the Council by any organisation that takes over the Bridge in the future. I think that the Council has been remiss in not seeking to get the provisions of the Act revised so that the finances of the bridge, which clearly cannot work ( ie toll charges paying for the annual and accumulated cost of the Bridge) are put on a sustainable and realistic footing. This may mean that the Council loses the benefit of some £2m a year from the toll income in its Accounts which reduces the Council Tax requirement. Is the lowest Council Tax in Wales claim based on fact or fiction? Indeview J Hudson
  • Score: 0

12:19pm Sun 6 Jul 14

seaveiw says...

Gogledd wrote:
Just adding here that what PCC should do instead is to try to do everything to support the market. Take a look at the Market in Carmarthen. It has had a complete makeover and its thriving as is Carmarthen but then we got back to the old argument that if the Kremlin had been built up town then we would have room for the retail side of it to expand. Had people not kept Mark and Spencers out years ago our town centre may have been a vibrant shopping centre not a crumbling assortment of buildings who are in desperate need of repair and maintenance....
I agree Carmarthen is a pleasure to visit , Haverfordwest is a no go area for me, retail side has not much to offer, without a car its impossible to access goods.,miles to go to find a chemist. Thank goodness for the internet.
[quote][p][bold]Gogledd[/bold] wrote: Just adding here that what PCC should do instead is to try to do everything to support the market. Take a look at the Market in Carmarthen. It has had a complete makeover and its thriving as is Carmarthen but then we got back to the old argument that if the Kremlin had been built up town then we would have room for the retail side of it to expand. Had people not kept Mark and Spencers out years ago our town centre may have been a vibrant shopping centre not a crumbling assortment of buildings who are in desperate need of repair and maintenance....[/p][/quote]I agree Carmarthen is a pleasure to visit , Haverfordwest is a no go area for me, retail side has not much to offer, without a car its impossible to access goods.,miles to go to find a chemist. Thank goodness for the internet. seaveiw
  • Score: 2

12:27pm Sun 6 Jul 14

seaveiw says...

Welshman23 wrote:
Perhaps BPJ and farmer Adams need new offices so an ideal location. The council have spent a fortune in Bridge Street with the block paving. If you add the cost of reducing the lanes going up to the hospital and putting a bus stop. Loonies running the council.
block paving now been disturbed looks a mess now not wearing well as more traffic going up and down. Also long strip of tarmac now blighting it even further. No one thought about problem of accessing utilities.
[quote][p][bold]Welshman23[/bold] wrote: Perhaps BPJ and farmer Adams need new offices so an ideal location. The council have spent a fortune in Bridge Street with the block paving. If you add the cost of reducing the lanes going up to the hospital and putting a bus stop. Loonies running the council.[/p][/quote]block paving now been disturbed looks a mess now not wearing well as more traffic going up and down. Also long strip of tarmac now blighting it even further. No one thought about problem of accessing utilities. seaveiw
  • Score: 2

1:56pm Sun 6 Jul 14

Tttoommy says...

seaveiw wrote:
Gogledd wrote:
Just adding here that what PCC should do instead is to try to do everything to support the market. Take a look at the Market in Carmarthen. It has had a complete makeover and its thriving as is Carmarthen but then we got back to the old argument that if the Kremlin had been built up town then we would have room for the retail side of it to expand. Had people not kept Mark and Spencers out years ago our town centre may have been a vibrant shopping centre not a crumbling assortment of buildings who are in desperate need of repair and maintenance....
I agree Carmarthen is a pleasure to visit , Haverfordwest is a no go area for me, retail side has not much to offer, without a car its impossible to access goods.,miles to go to find a chemist. Thank goodness for the internet.
PCC will have to ensure a fast road to Carmarthen - Landdowror by-pass saves me around 5 minutes at least - If all our emergency services will eventually be based in carmarthen.

I guess the cng/refineries have their own fire brigade/ambulance/do
ctor?

A side effect of this easier journey to Carmarthen will be more and more people going to there to shop, eat and be entertained rather than face the toilet that PCC has made the once proud county - indeed in carmarthens multi-storey car patrk I can actually fit my car into the parking spaces without worrying my car will be damaged by another guy who has had to park only a few inches away ,nor worry that my alloys will be damaged going round the vERY narrow and tight corners of the car parks in Tenby and Haverfordwest - I bet Bryn Jones Porsche would get jammed if he ever wanted to park there (actually surprised that he hasn't told Jamie "I need a chaffeur" or I'll leave LOL)

Talking about Bryn - I wonder if the by pass was built to get him to the office quicker rather than help Pembs people? :((
[quote][p][bold]seaveiw[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Gogledd[/bold] wrote: Just adding here that what PCC should do instead is to try to do everything to support the market. Take a look at the Market in Carmarthen. It has had a complete makeover and its thriving as is Carmarthen but then we got back to the old argument that if the Kremlin had been built up town then we would have room for the retail side of it to expand. Had people not kept Mark and Spencers out years ago our town centre may have been a vibrant shopping centre not a crumbling assortment of buildings who are in desperate need of repair and maintenance....[/p][/quote]I agree Carmarthen is a pleasure to visit , Haverfordwest is a no go area for me, retail side has not much to offer, without a car its impossible to access goods.,miles to go to find a chemist. Thank goodness for the internet.[/p][/quote]PCC will have to ensure a fast road to Carmarthen - Landdowror by-pass saves me around 5 minutes at least - If all our emergency services will eventually be based in carmarthen. I guess the cng/refineries have their own fire brigade/ambulance/do ctor? A side effect of this easier journey to Carmarthen will be more and more people going to there to shop, eat and be entertained rather than face the toilet that PCC has made the once proud county - indeed in carmarthens multi-storey car patrk I can actually fit my car into the parking spaces without worrying my car will be damaged by another guy who has had to park only a few inches away ,nor worry that my alloys will be damaged going round the vERY narrow and tight corners of the car parks in Tenby and Haverfordwest - I bet Bryn Jones Porsche would get jammed if he ever wanted to park there (actually surprised that he hasn't told Jamie "I need a chaffeur" or I'll leave LOL) Talking about Bryn - I wonder if the by pass was built to get him to the office quicker rather than help Pembs people? :(( Tttoommy
  • Score: 0
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